Sacrificial Love is the Ultimate Value

It's really too bad this claim isn't tagged with "messianic truth".

This seems fairly good to me, but there're a lot of nay-sayers. I want to hear from them, why isn't it? What other things (if any) are?

You know why I don't think so? Because so many times, when people really want to control you, they'll do something for you "at their own expense."

After that, you're indebted to them. And nothing is ever good enough.

XavierAM: That is a fair comment, but what trumps true selfless love?

Will

XavierAM:

How are "Will" and "true selfless love" different?

They're different concepts entirely.

XavierAM:

I understand that you are making that statement, but I am trying to understand what you mean when you say they are different and why "will" trumps "true selfless love".

Selfless Love is only a virtue if somebody wants what you're giving them, if you're not pushing your nose in business where it's not wanted, if you don't respond by asking for something in return.

(notably: the love of God as you describe him is not selfless, since it demands obedience in return)

Selfless love is the virtue of both Mother's and Stalkers. And, while I love my Mother, sometimes you have to tell people to mind their own business, you're a grownup now.

On the other hand, while I don't necessarily agree with what people with a lot of Will, force and direction... you have to admire them for being able to make a difference in the world. Those are the people who drive the engine of history, who discover, who invent, who create.

Sometimes, somebody with great Will is malign... and so somebody else of great Will rises to stop them.

And that's part of what makes life so interesting!

XavierAM:

You wrote, "(notably: the love of God as you describe him is not selfless, since it demands obedience in return)"

Where did I describe God as demanding obedience?

Some Christians believe that everything is permissible

XavierAM:

You wrote, "Selfless love is the virtue of both Mother's and Stalkers. And, while I love my Mother, sometimes you have to tell people to mind their own business, you're a grownup now."

Could your reasoning be a partial explanation of

loving one's mommy less?

or would this be a better explanation of

loving one's mommy less?

XavierAM:

You wrote, "Sometimes, somebody with great Will is malign... and so somebody else of great Will rises to stop them.

And that's part of what makes life so interesting!"

and some would argue, provides motivation for writing

classic literature like Crime and Punishment

Jim,

Don't be evasive about it. God has rules, you're supposed to obey them. This fails, because you are born imperfect, so you are due for punishment. So out of his "great love" you're potentially saved from the punishment he was going to give you... IF you accept JC as your personal Lord and Savior. Obey, or suffer in hell.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make regarding loving my mother less. Those verses are some of the most poignant reminders of why Christianity is a creepy religion. How vain and demanding! What a petty and jealous God is described there!

Ah, the madness of artists... authors, poets, painters and composers. How much dross and mud would life be without the beauty they have brought to us.

...How sad, that in the Christian view, they would probably all go to Hell.

What is good about sacrificial love?

It depends what you mean by sacrifice. If you mean giving up things that aren't very important to you for things that are much more important, then well... only idiots don't do that.

Sacrificial love is the love of the enabler. Or of the insane person who will love you "unconditionally", which seems to mean no matter who you are and totally unrelated to you as a person but simply because they have decided to love you.

What is the merit in this love?

I like being loved, don't get me wrong, but I like being loved by people who love ~me~. And they do things for me... sometimes D'Archangel brings me food because he doesn't want me to starve to death. That's great. But I have no illusions - he doesn't want me to starve to death because then he wouldn't get to be with me. It's to his benefit to keep me alive.

So, what is this great sacrificial love we're talking about?

I only know of one case that seems to fit it in my personal experience, and it was incredibly bad and unhealthy.

Rachel:

I hold up the life of Martin Luther King Jr. as an example of how a man's sacrificial love transformed a nation.

Another example is illustrated by the story Ernest Gordon wrote in

"Miracle on the River Kwai."

I hold up the example of the signers of The Declaration Of Independence who risked their lives by signing that document.

I hold up the example of William Tyndale who lost his life as a result of translating the Bible into English.

Peggy Noonan ask the question,

What kind of nation sends millions of white men to free a million black men?

So, I think you're saying that doing the right thing is sacrificial love.

Sacrificial love may be needed at times, but what about when it isn't.

Sometimes doing the right thing requires no sacrifice. And then I think it's just as valuable.

Knowing when a risk is a good idea and when it is not is important. If no sacrifice would be useful, then sacrificing something is just plain stupid.

I think the measure of the virtue has to be looked at in the complete context and isn't based on what the one doing it lost, but on how well they acted in that situation.

Acting wisely toward good ends is the supreme virtue, I guess.

Although I like to call it efficiency.

There are heroes and marytrs for all sorts of causes. You name some. There are others. But your claim is that Sacrificial Love is the GREATEST of virtues and I cannot see that for certain.

What of the virtues of Cortez, who traveled across the world to conquer, and ended up liberating Central America from the bloodthirsty Aztecs? Or the virtues of Caesar, to strike against the hypocrisy of Senators and do honor to the people who honor him? Or of Brutus, who murdered his best friend to preserve democracy? Or Machiavelli? Talleyrand? Marco Polo? Edison? Cleopatra?

XavierAM:

You wrote that "will" trumps sacrificial love.

I am curious if your personal philosophy aligns with

Voluntarism

Jim... I didn't say Will *trumps* Sacrificial Love. I said that it speaks against the notion that Sacrificial Love is the *ultimate* virtue. Perhaps there is no "ultimate" virtue.

I don't particularly appreciate voluntarism as a metaphysical concept because anything which so completely sidelines the importance of reason.

XavierAM:

I see I misquoted you.

I asked you what trumps "true selfless love"?...to which you responded

"Will".

I later clarified that

"...your claim is that Sacrificial Love is the GREATEST of virtues and I cannot see that for certain."

Since that was the most recent and proximate statement, I presumed that is what you were referring and responding to.

That is, it "trumps" as in "displaces from being the highest / ultimate virtue" not "is in itself the highest and ultimate virtue."

Love is the ultimate....

sacrafical love sacrafices for that which is the grates of all virtues

It's all very true, cheese graters do leave some very impressive scars. I disagree with digory that love of scarification leads to a love of grates, however.

That's the comment that inspired that claim? Ben was just picking on a comment that didn't actually convey ~anything~. What else was he supposed to do but have fun with the typos? The comment failed to address any of the points in the comments made before it and added nothing.

At least get upset from something more interesting. Like when you are making an argument that can actually be discussed. You didn't even make an argument in that comment.

i was responding to the claim
by saying
sacrificial love must have somthing grater than itself to to sacrafice too and so must not be the gratestof all virtues

Why must it? Sacrificial love simply means you love something and sacrifice for it. What you love can be horrible or stupid. It says nothing about the object of the love.

working on it, are you?

In easy position to leap and save himself, McGinnis instead jumped to cover the grenade with his body to shield his comrades.

The Wall Street Journal
A Man in Full
June 3, 2008; Page A20

What you love can be horrible or stupid. It says nothing about the object of the love.

It says that the object of love is socialised to value it as you value it.

*might be socialised to

Violaine, how so? Do you really think people never love anything that doesn't value being loved? Or doesn't even understand what it means to be loved?

Your feelings toward something really say nothing about its feelings toward you.

Sacrifice... to make holy... The ultimate value of what? Love?

Try and define love. Everyone has their own concept of it and it varies greatly from person to person with very few being able to codify it in words.

Love is a biochemical reaction. Nothing more... nothing less.