The main reason why Jyte.COM doesn't have more users is because of an exaltation of pathetic devotion to excellence above a more inclusive "community spirit" orientation

I'll interpret this to mean excellence apart from the moral sense of the concept.

But you feel that the devotion is pathetic?

You're right: We *are* better than you.

D'A

You got that right, Kriebly... -- and you probably drink too much coffee, too!

Weird. I don't see too much "shouting out" happening, except when people are *obnoxious*.

If they're merely "not excellent", wouldn't that just result in them being ignored, which is the opposite of "shouting out"?

I think online is still sobbing into his beer because we didn't like his asshole friend.

D'A

Great feedback! I updated the tags appropriately.

For fucks sake. Hey, online, if you want to stick with your subjective understanding of "excel(ling beyond everyone and leaving everyone else behind to wallow in their inso)lence", fair enough. But my honour of the philosophical meaning of the virtue has been reinstated, so to speak. From my view, which subscribes to virtue ethics, excellence is a demonstration of a constellation of virtues, if not all virtue. The people you should ignore on jyte.COM aren't the least bit concerned about the virtue of excellence insofar as the instrumental value of the status helps them advance through every hierarchy of need (which equates to egocentric individualistic self-servitude). Why? Because a shitload of people extrapolate their identity from sociopolitical status. Sometimes I question whether it's pathological.

Good point -- but I see a difference between ignoring spammers and trolls vs. "paying attention" to psychopaths.

Spammers + trolls want only attention (at any cost), but psychopaths are fanatical "witnesses" of their own religions.

What is the difference?

What are they religious about?

The difference is that spammers + trolls want attention for attention's sake, but psychopaths have a missionary attitude that is bent on forcing others into submission.

For the sake of?

building temples unto themselves as godlike creatures -- as in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUAOGt7FmM0#t=2m50s

"I mean it won't blow up and disappear, it'll just look ugly for a thousand years."

A testimony of someone who has experienced it, I imagine.

Well, he was locked up in a prison decades ago and then he also lived in LA -- so I guess that has to count for something...

I find Jyte is usually fairly welcoming to newcomers, and it does cut newcomers slack. However, it does require that newcomers act decently and have the basic skills of joining a new community. If they come in and immediately expect to know everything or to explain why the culture that is already established ought to be different than it is, then of course they will not be made to feel welcome. Many people who joined Jyte had their early Jyting go very smoothly, because they had reasonably good social skills.

So why do you think someone who has been using + moderating online communities for well over 5 years would run away screaming upon being flamed by the community here?

Or, to ask differently: Why do you suppose so few people sign up?

I think it's a shame, BTW -- because the functionality of the site is really quite good.

My hypothesis:

As evidenced by many of the entries, not everyone wants to make a true/false claim and have it critically examined.

Jyte is geared for people who do want to make true/false claims and have them critically examined, so it mostly attracts those people over the long term.

Yes, you could basically call it "nothing more than just another social website" (as I did in my first claim, because there is no explicit focus of attention). And many such websites do, in fact, develop a culture of "establishment" -- and if the establishment is open to new ideas, then the site generally still works quite well (that's the impression that comes across @ digg.com, for example -- certainly digg would be nothing if not for it's users [even though the digg trademark/name is a little reminiscent of "digging" something ;]).

So if digg.com (or facebook.com) has a gazillion monthly uniques -- and those sites also allow people to "vote on claims", then voting itself simply doesn't seem to be the reason why people would stay away... at least not the way I see it.... I'm thinking it must be something else.

Every group treats newcomers differently than established members. Jyte is no different in that regard.

yes, I'd agree with that -- and I also feel the way Jyters tend treat newcomers has a lot to do with why there are many people who do not even think of signing up. After all, my friend signed up and said hi because she trusted me -- and we were both shocked at the quite rude and disrespectful welcome she got.

Most people will lurk on a site before joining (not me -- I'm probably a member at many thousands of sites ;)... and if/when they see newcomers being treated that way, then they will not think twice about joining: they will not join, and they probably likewise run away screaming.

online, that's not true is the other way around. We weren't disrespectful. We told her how Jyte works, and she call me a fucktard.

How are we supposed to be welcoming with a person like that? How are we supposed to like her?

And she didn't apologize by the way, shame on her.

With the not-very warm welcome she got, she didn't feel like staying.

But note that this claim is not about Emily - it is about the reason why Jyte doesn't have more users... someone else brought up the way Emily was treated. And while it's a good example of the gruff manner with which newcomers are treated, AFAIK it is be no means an isolated case. The uncivil manner of discourse seems to have become endemic in the established culture of this site.

This is not a value judgement -- it is merely the way I see it as a (rather thick-skinned) noob to the site. And it also seems to be a very plausible reason why this site has so few users.

Personally, I like a site with a few cool users as opposed to a site with a lot of users who are or aren't cool

Good point... and I think I can see why you why you would say that (but note also that the claim was basically intended to offer an answer to the question why aren't there more users? ... and IMO a "general purpose" site like this could indeed be expected to have more users)

Yes, Jyte is not welcoming to newcomers who come in, act rudely, insult people who try to politely help them, and then throw a temper tantrum. But I don't think we should be.

Jyte is welcoming to newcomers who have decent social skills.

However, I think that Jyte isn't for everyone, because most people do not want to be disagreed with or to face people critiquing their views. Most people want to receive affirmation. Jyte doesn't do affirmation. So, Jyte only attracts people who are comfortable discussing their views in an environment where people will vocally disagree with them. And I think that is appropriate for a site based on making claims.

It is true that Jyte will likely have its age skew old, both because accepting criticism is an acquired skill and thus more likely to occur in those who are older (have had more time to practice and learn it) and because social skills in general are also skills and thus take time to practice and learn. However, we certainly have had young people with those skills, so they have managed just fine.

I personally view driving off rude people who aren't willing to listen as a feature.

"So why do you think someone who has been using + moderating online communities for well over 5 years would run away screaming upon being flamed by the community here?"

A guess, but it could be that someone who incorrectly believes they have a level of understanding about a social situation (5 years of experience in "online communities"), and who has grown comfortable acting from a position of authority (moderating), might react counter-productively when thrust into a different situation without authority where someone critiques their behavior.

Basically, someone with authority might learn to behave in a certain way towards people who challenge them / their authority. Additionally, someone who is used to other (different) communities but who does not (yet?) appreciate those differences might behave in a manner that is appropriate only in a different context.

That's just my supposition based on information available to me now. Hope it helps / rings true.

"Or, to ask differently: Why do you suppose so few people sign up?"

I think that is a different question (much more general, and addressing a different segment of the population). I can think of a few reasons, but I don't share your confidence in any one of them.

Slarti raises good points. I'd add that someone who is used to communities they have been part of for a long time is probably used to being treated with a certain level of respect. For example, on Jyte I generally expect that I have demonstrated my understanding of psychology, such that if I mention something within the field of psychology it will be considered with more weight than if a random person stated it. There are also communities where I expect that if my words are ambiguous, they will be assumed to be meant well, because I have established that I act very kindly to people in that community.

However, when I join a new community I am very aware that none of this follows with me, and I must re-establish respect and good will beyond what a random person has. This is difficult. It is especially difficult if one is given power within that community, but it isn't that hard if you start off with no special powers or privileges. However, it is something you must do. And it is something you should expect to do.

A lack of awareness of this is most likely due to youth, a narrow range of communities, forgetfulness (possibly due to not joining a new community in a while), or social cluelessness.

Sometimes having somebody who is already a part of the community to help ease you in can help (although it can also make it harder to establish the ways in which you are different from that person). But it still requires accepting your role as new to the community, and some people are just bad at this. And some people are just plain lazy, as evidenced by people who joined Usenet groups without reading the FAQ and lurking for a while first to learn what is appropriate behavior in the group.

In general, anyone who speaks before lurking for a while in an online community should expect to have that work out poorly. Lurking is considered to be a bare minimum of politeness. And while you can often get along fine without lurking, especially if you have very good social skills, you are deliberately skipping your responsibility to the community, and thus it's your own fault if it doesn't turn out well.

Perhaps Slarti raises good points, but they're off-topic, so they're not relevant here.

My comments are in response to yours, and just as on or off topic. I do think it is relevant to a discussion of 'community spirit' though. *shrug*. YMMV.

It still doesn't explain why there are so few people who are willing to sign up (or "come out" of lurking -- as I indicated before, my impression is that most are so put off by the behavior they see, that they are unwilling to interact on that level and simply move on in silence). I am perhaps different because of my devotion to information (and in this particular instance that means expressing my ideas).

Yes, but what benefit is there to gaining users who aren't comfortable discussing ideas?

For newcommers, it is not clear what use there is in Jyte.
The Jyte welcome page could state:
"Test your thinking, what do other people think about your unique ideas".

Rolies, that is remarkably sensible. It does say "Yes, anything. Make a claim and let the community vote on it. Put your stake in the ground and see where the votes go!"

But I like the "Test your thinking" aspect of what you suggest.

Yes, but what benefit is there to gaining users who aren't comfortable discussing ideas?

That seems like you're reaching a little bit too far. You maintain that you understand psychology, but you pretend to be able to divine what other people feel comfortable about or not -- to me, that sounds more like quackery... you should not be so certain about your intuition, because in this case you are way off.

The behaviour [1] people see is discussion of ideas. If people are put off by it, it seems reasonable to associate the two and say that they "aren't comfortable discussing ideas." (to me)

[1] Thank you British dictionary!

I doubt that there are many people interested in being tested by people who seem to be insensitive.

I don't think it's a matter of wording on the homepage, but rather of the lack of willingness to include people who are unlike the establichment. As long as people are only welcomed if the follow such an authoritarian ruleset, I doubt many people will be very eager to take the leap and risk be shot down as soon as they make the slightest mistake in the eyes of the establishment jury.

Oh sure, you always get false negatives and false positives. That doesn't mean much. However, in general, most people probably don't want a claim site. And the things that tend to drive people off seem to be people disagreeing with them. It usually doesn't reach to significant rudeness until the new person starts it or acts very poorly.

I've seen a lot of new people join. Some come in smoothly and are welcomed, despite knowing nobody on the site. Some come in roughly, do a bunch of stupid things, but listen when they are corrected, start behaving well, get welcomed, and then later they complain when new people make the same mistakes they did and try to correct other newcomers. Some come in and act badly and run off. Some come in, act badly, and stay. And some come in, state extremist positions, ignore all interaction, and leave - in which case they probably don't care about the site at all, and just wanted to broadcast their views.

But it's rare to see somebody who acts decently get scared off. It does happen now and then, but usually it's indirect then; they dislike what is going on between other people. Or it's due to technical difficulties or the results of technical issues such as the massive battery spam, which I'm sure frightened off a decent percent of people who looked at Jyte when that was happening.

Many new people have commented on how comfortable the community did make them feel.

Anyhow, every community will make some people comfortable and some people uncomfortable. That is a given, because there is no one type of community that everyone likes. I'm fine with some people being scared off, especially if they are scared off by people stating positions firmly.

online, if you aren't up to having your ideas tested by people who don't care about you, then I don't think you should be on Jyte. It's rather stupid to expect strangers to care about you as a person.

Also, we don't jump on newcomers at the smallest mistake, most of the time. For example, that person you encouraged to have join Jyte. When she made a mistake Rael politely pointed it out to her to help her to better adjust to Jyte. We jumped on her only after she replied with sarcasm, obscenity, and rudeness to somebody politely attempting to help her. But the first response she got to a mistake was politeness.

Well, I will grant DA this much: he voted in the inspirant claim that he is not upset that Jyte has so few people who are willing to join.

And it fits perfectly (IMO) with my claim here -- namely that the site is presently functioning more / less as a club for narcissists who get a kick out of running anyone out who is less narcissistic than they are.

I think you are confusing narcissism with healthy self-esteem. You need to have enough self-esteem to be able to not fall apart when somebody tells you you are wrong or when somebody disagrees with you.

Let Jyte have 3 chambers:

1 newbies, they can claim what they want, not related to the Jyte claimabase.

2 chose a tutor, as soon as she approves your sincere
stupidity and chopinness you will go to level 3

3 the Real Jyte

Real Jyters get better jobs of course

I think a significant measure of the disconnect between what newcomers *expect* Jyte to be, and what the existing userbase *actually* do with it, is the use of the term "vote".

On other sites, like the ones brandnewsite.wordpress.com mentions above, "vote" is used to indicate that a "like" or "dislike" for a particular entry. The number of votes each way is primarily an indicator of popularity.

On Jyte, the structure and culture encourage factual *claims*, which are either true or false. Hence the buttons are not "vote up" or "vote down". They are "agree" or "disagree". So, when a new claim appears, we're not treating it as something to be popular or otherwise; we're having a conversation about *whether it is true*.

That doesn't seem much like voting to me; voting is about popularity, and what people *want*. Here on Jyte, though, we discuss what is *true*. That's quite different, and I don't think Jyte's interface helps newcomers see that very well.

That is a good point, Bignose. I think that addressing that in some way would be useful.

When I was a kid, I was also enamored with such simpleton binary logic.

Such "absolute" notions of truth and falsehood are shallow and do not reflect reality in any meaningful way. They are merely the stuff of abstract tinkerers use to keep their small minds occupied without overburdening them with reality.

In other words: I don't see a significant difference. If you learn more languages, you see through their superficiality more easily. To focus on a particular instance is to expect too much from linguistic relativism, and then the simpletons are always eager to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and to pretend that linguistic relativism has been disproven simply because Eskimos apparently couldn't care less about snow.

All of such fixations are too anal for ordinary adults.... (IMHO)

So, your point is that if new users get misled, we should just blame them rather than trying to do what we can to communicate in a way that is statistically more likely to convey what we mean?

> When I was a kid, I was also enamored with such simpleton binary logic.

Then perhaps you'd like to join us in the more nuanced discussions of truth and falsehood that actually go on here.

> Such "absolute" notions of truth and falsehood are shallow and do not reflect reality in any meaningful way.

If you see such things going on here on Jyte, feel free to point them out and you'll have the support of many of us here.

Please stop raising straw men to beat up, it's very tiresome.

"Please stop raising straw men to beat up, it's very tiresome."

*cough* Message for you, sir.

D'A